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  #11  
Old 11-22-2012, 05:35 AM
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warsaw pact warsaw pact is offline
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Wulf- this is really good thanks for staring this.

I think a beneficial part of this is examining responses and ideas, then discussing them so we can all improve or help mold our plans.


Quote:
You are the first to wake up in the late morning the next morning. Everything is eerily quiet. The power is still off. If you have family you wake them up, and gather them together, you decide to drive around your local area to see if there's any power lines down. Driving around people you see are moving frantically about, there is no power in the whole area. You stop by the local store to see it has already been ravaged. You go back home where you find out the that all 3 major power grids have been attacked and destroyed.
This is huge- because this is how it would probably start. Think of the mass confusion- as a society we are way too dependent on constant information constantly- think of 24/7 news, cable TV, phones, internet, texting, etc. If all of that abruptly ceased- you have a mega "what the hell is going on??" situation. You would have rumors, speculation, and either knee-jerk panic... or wishful thinking of "everything will be ok in a few days." So I like Einheit's call of a radio (self charging, etc) to tune in and get a feel for things. You have to get an idea of what is going on. Is power out for a week? Or did DC get wiped out by a dirty bomb? Big difference in your planning and mindset.

TK- go to a gun store!? I like your thinking (ammo), but how about this- instead of attempting that (and hoping the local store somehow has 7.62 x 54r) why don't you stock up now? In theory cash would be worthless anyway in a true SHTF scenario.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...Can&groupid=40

True story, a family member of mine (Vietnam vet) rushed out on 11 Sept 2001 around 2 pm to get some pistol and rifle ammo from Walmart (just wasn't feeling safe and his supplies were low). When he got there the manager was pulling all ammo off the shelves. He asked why, said claimed was a corporate order to do so. On the side he said something like "they don't want people going out and shooting Arabs in reaction to today." Better to get it before you desperately need it.

The idea of "bugging out" to the country is a red flag for me. I'm not a hunter, I don't have a cabin. I think a lot of people assume they could go out in the woods like Red Dawn and camp out. If you have those skills or an idea place to go (a legit place), ok, but you should work on the routes of how to get there. Assume major highways will be choked. I know some people who all went in on a cabin- and have a pre-set evac plan (which can be launched without communication) where they all meet up at a pre-determined point and go to the cabin with pre-determined supplies. Everyone has a set of skills they need to function.

For me, I need to focus on bugging in. There are a lot of things that stick out I am missing- generator, emergency radio, water puriificaiton system, dehyrdated foods, etc.

I don't want to go too far ahead of this. I really think the first week or so would be crucial. What would be your policy for outsiders early on? Remember- they dont' show up like Mad Max, the first people show up asking for a hand out (and to scope you out).

Last edited by warsaw pact; 11-22-2012 at 05:38 AM. Reason: ,
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  #12  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:59 AM
tk421991 tk421991 is offline
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Originally Posted by warsaw pact View Post
TK- go to a gun store!? I like your thinking (ammo), but how about this- instead of attempting that (and hoping the local store somehow has 7.62 x 54r) why don't you stock up now? In theory cash would be worthless anyway in a true SHTF scenario.
Already ahead of you. As of today, I have 260 rounds of S&B 174gr BTHP. But there's always room for more. And I wouldn't buy surplus for prepping. Its already 30 - 70 years old, I need a tool to crack the can open, and it won't be as easy to reload as brass. I don't want to hear CLICK when I pull the trigger.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:52 AM
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E I was waiting on your response, your mentioning of scurvy got my attention, I knew historically its what destroyed sailors and POW's for centuries, its vitamin C that combats it right? I'm curious on your idea of 3 guns for each, is it one of a certain class or is it more so a weight and mobility issue?
Vitamin C fights it. Cabbages, tomatoes, citrus fruits, and a few other veggies as well as some animal fats contain it. Tomatoes have the highest amount vs serving size other than citrus fruit. Hard to can citrus fruits without a bunch of other junk added to it.

3 guns covers two areas. Mobility and ease of transition/learning curve. Handgun, shotgun, assault rifle/rifle. Ammo/mags for each. i don't 3 shotguns but I have the handguns and rifles. and I gots boolets!! I'm a pack mule. I can carry much weight for a long time. I'm still pretty backwoods/self sufficient and luckily my sons have actually been paying attention. My brothers though, cell phone and video game/computer junkies. They'll have to learn on the fly. My grandparents and a few good friends (always older) have always pushed the 'old way' to get things done and to live life. I honestly understand the meaning behind KISS. I guess that one of the reasons I make stuff instead of buying it. Food storage/preserving I have always been around. The tail end of the Cold War and a family that came up poor but honest about everyday needs. It was embarrassing when I was a kid. No A/C, buying meat on the hoof, 8mm movies...us going to pizza hut or arby's would have been the same as going to Ruth's Chris Steak House today. We made and stored everything. I still have a pair of boots that I learned to re sole with tread from tires! I can sustain (not just survive) almost anywhere without most of the common amenities we enjoy so much today. I enjoy helping others in this aspect too, but I am also viciously defensive on the same hand. I can count on one hand those that I truly trust and still have enough fingers left to zip up my breeches! Sad, but so is society!

And my bug out plan consists of a cabin and multiple routes to get there. 4hrs away by common route but there are other ways to get there that many either don't know about or simply don't think. America's other interstate systems...railroads and right of ways and old war/exploration trails! You'd be very surprised on where you can go off the paved planet with almost any vehicle.


My decision to bug out so quickly is based off this scenario...
Quote:
attacked and destroyed
....I am responsible for my own security and well being, not the governments.
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tk421991 View Post
Already ahead of you. As of today, I have 260 rounds of S&B 174gr BTHP. But there's always room for more. And I wouldn't buy surplus for prepping. Its already 30 - 70 years old, I need a tool to crack the can open, and it won't be as easy to reload as brass. I don't want to hear CLICK when I pull the trigger.
Why not?? Stored properly and depending on where it came from, it will be just fine for a long time to come. You keep thinking you're gonna be able to reload on the fly. Ever thought about the basics?? Keeping the powder dry, brass clean and free of debris and moisture?? yea, let there be some moisture in that case you light it off. Its not pretty. Then you have different types of powders for different loads and types of ammo.

The cans come with an opener....a screwdriver and a pair of snips open them in a matter of minutes. Its only as complicated as YOU make it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:45 AM
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Yeah, the whole "what year is it, where did it come from" game is something I don't need to worry about. I don't trust surplus when I'm at the range, never mind when my life is on the line.

Besides, all surplus is FMJ. Soft Points work better on any animal, humans included.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:47 AM
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Yeah, the whole "what year is it, where did it come from" game is something I don't need to worry about. I don't trust surplus when I'm at the range, never mind when my life is on the line.

Besides, all surplus is FMJ. Soft Points work better on any animal, humans included.
till you run out, and even then some don't act right. Besides that, unless you are gonna be Mr. Sniper or Mr.Ambush, your Mosin is a poor choice if you happen to actually get a taste of combat. Trust me, people will spend more time ducking than aiming shots. It takes a while to get used to being shot at and not hide instead of returning fire. Bolt actions are good with good sight or an optic as support, not 'front line' duty. Even with protection you are seriously out matched by semi auto weapons. i look at any type of confrontation as being one a 'defend and repel'. Many that think they are hardcore shooters will end up as a free lunch for the wildlife in short order. I'm taking this to the extreme, but thats my mind set. Shoot, move, communicate, repeat. Siege, that is how any form of attack will happen. You will be penned down and worn out because you will lack freedom of mobility and relief. 5 men can pen down 50....keep the 'base and garrison' thoughts out of your mind. Thats what staying in a larger city makes me think of. Thats why I will go off the beaten path. Out of sight, out of mind. killing a wolves in the den is one thing, out in the open, its a very different story. Strongholds become crypts in very short order. Always look insignificant. It really does make a difference vs show of force. Someone will always want to test it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by einheit 13 View Post
your Mosin is a poor choice if you happen to actually get a taste of combat.

Always look insignificant. It really does make a difference vs show of force. Someone will always want to test it.
I know the M91/30 is obsolete. It was obsolete in 1918. The French and Mexicans had invented semi-auto rifles by then, and machine pistols were appearing in the trenches. Feodor Tokarev designed a semi-auto Mosin in 1910, and the Avtomat came out in the end of WW1.

But the point of this discussion was to keep to guns we own today, and I'll admit, I don't have the right weapons for any modern combat situation. That'll change a little next week, but I still need to get a better rifle than the M91/30. But this discussion is about what we have today.

I do agree with the insignificant idea. Blending in always works, I even pulled it off in London and Paris. It was November, and I was wearing a 60's Finnish Army coat (feldgrau). Apparently, gray coats were in fashion with European kids, and I looked like a Frenchman. That and I can speak French, and I know what poppies mean in Britain.

Last edited by tk421991; 11-22-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:12 PM
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Day 1: Look out thw window and glare around. Fix bayonet to Tantal and pop in a 30 rounder and cycle it. scan around for anything of use
Day 2: Scrounge up 5.45x39 and possibly more magazines
Day 3: See if any friends or family are still alive, get them together, and get out of there
Week 1: Go to an abandoned National Guard post (The closest one to me is Fort McPhereson)
Week 2: Try and find other survivors
Week 3: Barricade everyone into a Building at least 10 stories or taller that has food.
Month 1: Find a Scoped Weapon, like a Mosin 91/30 PU

I have not really thought about the rest....
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:01 PM
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I know the M91/30 is obsolete. It was obsolete in 1918. The French and Mexicans had invented semi-auto rifles by then, and machine pistols were appearing in the trenches. Feodor Tokarev designed a semi-auto Mosin in 1910, and the Avtomat came out in the end of WW1.

But the point of this discussion was to keep to guns we own today, and I'll admit, I don't have the right weapons for any modern combat situation. That'll change a little next week, but I still need to get a better rifle than the M91/30. But this discussion is about what we have today.

I do agree with the insignificant idea. Blending in always works, I even pulled it off in London and Paris. It was November, and I was wearing a 60's Finnish Army coat (feldgrau). Apparently, gray coats were in fashion with European kids, and I looked like a Frenchman. That and I can speak French, and I know what poppies mean in Britain.
Its either a chick or money. Only heard it once. Sounds like a scouser to me.
i guess I'd be a stand out in me bleachers or Sta-Prest, me Alpha, and Rangers. Maybe even show a Lonsdale and braces on for good measure!




Anyway, back on topic.
I have no idea beyond maybe a 6mo mark as to what would happen. Think about it this way. If things were knocked out because of an attack or a solar flare, what would happen at the water treatment/sewage plants. This why I'm thinking cities are a bad idea. Sickness is my main concern.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:04 PM
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WP I just recently found out, they make generators that run on propane. That amazed me as propane is so cheap. Turns out a friend of mine has his house wired to it, so 1 fuel to run his hole house, totally off the grid. I fully admit generators for the most point is a finite resource. While not as rugged and durable as a diesel engine, you can get a decent sized propane tank (underground) that will offer a little more time. The other thought I was wondering is what kind of house do you have? Bugging in, or bunkering in sadly isn't discussed enough. (i will recite and mention as many shows as possible so that they can be found & watched, for more idea's). Best Defense Survival did a few seasons, and touched on bugging in pretty well, everything from hardening up soft points (windows doors) to even making them semi bullet proof with phone books. If you have a house that you have a crawl space below, then it offers you the advantage o a "potato cellar". It would be a lot of back breaking work, but at a depth of 4 feet its been proven that the temperature stays between 50 and 55 feet. A lot of companies are using this "trick" in their geocooling systems. Its the same idea that's been around for 100's of years, and it will stand...heh and no refrigerant needed!

TK I appreciate you are going on the idea of what you have now, indeed one of the things that was so profound to me, was that even writing it up I realized how much I lacked in medical aid, and veggies. The flip side is (assuming prepping is something you sincerely want to do....and I will say here if its something you don't want to bother with that's fine & your choice) seeing your weak spots and acting on it. Regrettably I have been in a situation where I actually wanted rounds to return fire. I didn't care what bullet weight they were, or when they had been loaded, the fact that they were the right caliber and most importantly available was all I cared about.


Who here has medical training? I admit mine is not as good as I would like, but simple things like compiling all your medical stuff together is 1 simple thing you can do. If you have braces, crutches, canes ..anything putting it together in a general area allows you to access it easier. I think everyone should at least have a booboo kit at the very minum. But beyond the military style IFAK is a great personal investment, and those with families, the platoon level first aid kit is a good option.

There is a concern on first aid kits, which is not to get too much, or too little. Too little makes sense, in that if you need something and don't have it, kits bad. However a lot of people miss the point of owning a massive field hospital, can be bad if you don't have the training. I've already seen misapplication of "aid" that caused more trouble. Having it as a back up, for if/when you know/have someone that has medical training is great. Especially tho if your traveling, KISS.



Social situations, will be the hardest, bar none. I personally think tho that their will be a razors edge you have to balance between having enough people to function and be self sufficient, and having too many people that just drain supplies condemning everyone quicker. My thought would be (except for the old and infirm) those that can contribute to the group will be welcome. People with advanced medical training, dental training, old mechanical, security and even some electronic training would be welcome and even in demand. There will be a big need for manual labor either if your migrating somewhere, or if your bunkering in. Any building or situation will have weak points, and you will need strong able bodied people to be able to swing the hammer & do the work. Old people I take a different view on tho. Chances are most older people (around my area) can clearly tell you about their life before electricity. Most around here lived on farms and sparsely populated areas, they still know the ways of canning trapping, cleaning & protecting themselves in the wild. I see them as an invaluable resource of knowledge to learn from. But that will come at a cost, we all know that the human body breaks down over time, and even now at our state in civilization where there is a pill for everything old age is still hard. Taking away all that medical aid,...well you know where this is going.

In certain area's before the 1900's the life expectancy of men was 34 years, and 37 for women. With all of our medically adjusted and reinforced immune systems, there is a great thought, that my generation will even have a very hard time of things. It won't be until the first full generation of "free born" that they'll have an equal footing medically to survive on their own.

I think I'll say this in every post I make (repetition states intensity) Life goes on, but how will we facilitate it?


(P.S. Especially on this day, this day of giving Thanks, take a second and look around, for those of you that spend the day with family and friends, laugh, and love, have a wonderful time, realizing how quickly it can all go away makes it all the more that much precious)

Wulf
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