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Old 09-27-2014, 10:22 AM
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Default Good news!

The Dacia Sandero... um... scratch that.

An independent Russian businessman will be buying up Izmech/Kalashnikov Concern (and probably MOLOT will come with the deal). In theory this would allow Saigas and Veprs to be imported again. Then again all Barry would have to do is just expand the import ban to include this new guy.

Will I get back into the AK game if this flies with the ATF and Borders and Customs? No. But it's good news for people who still want a Vepr or Saiga (don't go Saiga, go Vepr)...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...lling-company/
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:33 PM
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Last I knew MOLOT was under Kalashnikov Concern, so it would come with the deal. If this new company isn't added to the list I will be ecstatic. I wanted a couple more VEPRs but can't really stomach the current prices.
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:54 PM
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Now we need Poland to step like Serbia has. I wish Bulgaria would get their head out of their asses and make their stuff more affordable. I love bulgarian AKs, but they aren't worth the price, that is why don't own any Arsenal AKs. I would love to see Finland and Hungary get back into the game also.
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Old 09-27-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by einheit 13 View Post
Now we need Poland to step like Serbia has. I wish Bulgaria would get their head out of their asses and make their stuff more affordable. I love bulgarian AKs, but they aren't worth the price, that is why don't own any Arsenal AKs. I would love to see Finland and Hungary get back into the game also.
If Poland starts importing guns you can bet they will be much more expensive than Bulgarian guns. I wouldn't mind seeing Rk-95s imported, other than that I don't know what either Finland or Hungary would import in the black rifle department neither country is really innovative in that area even though they have the resources and potential to be. Actually Hungary hasn't really produced any small arms since FEG became defunct and I don't have high hopes that arms manufacturing in Hungary will ever come back.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:24 PM
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Either way, it will be an extreme help when Obama's ass is out of the White House.
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Old 09-28-2014, 12:51 AM
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As for Poland, FB Radom is supposed to be opening a plant here in the US. I believe it is to be in TX.
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Old 09-28-2014, 04:45 AM
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I'm willing to bet that a decent Polish or Finnish AK would be over $1000 if they started imported them or if they built a plant here. Seriously, a Vepr is about a $1000 gun and Valmets were made better. Also have to keep in mind labor costs. The average Serb makes about $6000, $7000 a year. The average Russian makes about $9000 to $12,000. Polish estimation for this year is $23,000 and Finns make about $43,000 to $50,000. Obviously skilled gunsmiths, machinists and other folks who make the guns or work at the factory make more than average, but you can't have a cheap gun with expensive employees.

Once you start getting into quality AK rifles, it's not and can't be cheap. To get the Vepr I had to the same level where my M1A is now in terms of what's on each rifle, the Vepr cost $950, the scope mount was $200, and if I wanted to add a plastic stock it probably would've been another $100 or $200. So that's like $1300 vs $1600. And the M1A is probably the most expensive platform out there except for the post-2000 developed stuff like the SCAR, ARX100, and the (older) Steyr.

Just wondering, how much was a Valmet AK back in the 1980s and how much was say... a Savage 110 and a pre-Express Gun 870?
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Old 09-28-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk421992 View Post
I'm willing to bet that a decent Polish or Finnish AK would be over $1000 if they started imported them or if they built a plant here. Seriously, a Vepr is about a $1000 gun and Valmets were made better. Also have to keep in mind labor costs. The average Serb makes about $6000, $7000 a year. The average Russian makes about $9000 to $12,000. Polish estimation for this year is $23,000 and Finns make about $43,000 to $50,000. Obviously skilled gunsmiths, machinists and other folks who make the guns or work at the factory make more than average, but you can't have a cheap gun with expensive employees.

Once you start getting into quality AK rifles, it's not and can't be cheap. To get the Vepr I had to the same level where my M1A is now in terms of what's on each rifle, the Vepr cost $950, the scope mount was $200, and if I wanted to add a plastic stock it probably would've been another $100 or $200. So that's like $1300 vs $1600. And the M1A is probably the most expensive platform out there except for the post-2000 developed stuff like the SCAR, ARX100, and the (older) Steyr.

Just wondering, how much was a Valmet AK back in the 1980s and how much was say... a Savage 110 and a pre-Express Gun 870?
I totally disagree. When VePRs first came here, they were on the same price level as decent ARs and still under Armory USA/Global Trades Bulgarian weapons. When they went belly up and Arsenal Inc started, VePRs were still cheaper. They never gained the popularity. They disappeared because no one was buying them. Maadi and Steyr Maadi weapons never hit the premium price point and they were very nice weapons. FEG put out awesome weapons too. When Arsenal Inc sold them, they were at a premium. You could buy the same exact FEG somewhere else for almost less then half. When VePR came back, there were $300 more then all the Romanians. The Pioneer/Hunter was the most expensive. Within the last 5 years, their prices soared because of the popularity. The price of the weapon for importation didn't change. Look at the Saiga line. When Arsenal Inc struck a deal to have the barreled actions imported by them to make the SGL series, it cost more then the same exact Legion imported weapon. SGL and Legion are the same weapon, but have a $250+ difference in price. It is still just a Saiga regardless if it is stamped Arsenal Inc, FIME, or Legion. So why the huge price difference?? Snobbery and the fact that many gun owners are so naive, they think a name gives prestige. Arsenal Inc assembles weapons strictly for the US market that uses Arsenal BG parts and charges the same premium for a weapon that they didn't import or Arsenal BG doesn't make. What makes Arsenal so much 'better' then any other AK?? Us, the false market. it is turning out just like the AR section. Oh my god! That AR has a cold hammer forged barrel, it is worth the $300 dollars for that barrel alone! Kiss my ass, it doesn't mean a damned thing. Oh my god! That AK comes from straight from the factory with just the needed 922 parts. It costs $1000, so it has to the 'best'! Fools and their money!


Zastava makes an awesome product, why haven't their prices soared?? Saiga rifles kept getting cheaper, ever notice that?? Poland brought out the Archer at the same price point as an Arsenal, in one year the price dropped $200. That weapon cost well under the $999 that they were asking. Pioneer Arms AKs are in the right price point, but they haven't caught on. They are pure Polish. VePR shotguns were introduced cheaper them the rifle, and they shot right up in price. just before the Russian Weapons ban hit, they were dropping back down to reasonable. I got my brother one with the tube stock for.......$748.12 transferred, and walked out with it.

SARs are still cheaper the WaSRs, and they are a better weapon. SAR1/WUMs/991s/RomAKs are getting the same price as new WaSRs. Hungarian SA-85 series are on par with anything out there. The 85M was the neutered version. Used they are $1000 plus. Valmets are running $1200+ for the export only versions like the 71/S.

They way I see it, the AK market is ripe for new player with a 'new' weapon at a middle price point. It would tear the market apart and force 'real' prices vs product. Remember when Vector Arms first started?? They're weapons were top notch at a very affordable price point. They workmanship rivaled ANY but the very best custom builders and ALL of the factory built weapons. Then they got greedy, that turned sloppy, and they went the American way...screw the customer and charge more. If it doesn't work, screw them all and close the doors.

And as far as your 'level' of M1A, you paid double what it is worth. It was obsolete the day the first one was built. It does nothing any other 308 can't do, and is just an average shooting weapon. It is relying on 'history' that is doesn't have since it has the shortest military career of any US rifle. Snobbery again. It has nothing to with 'quality', it has everything to do with marketing and removing you from your money with little more then a warm fuzzy feeling as a selling point. Good ol' CMP tactics.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by einheit 13 View Post
...They way I see it, the AK market is ripe for new player with a 'new' weapon at a middle price point. It would tear the market apart and force 'real' prices vs product. Remember when Vector Arms first started?? They're weapons were top notch at a very affordable price point. They workmanship rivaled ANY but the very best custom builders and ALL of the factory built weapons. Then they got greedy, that turned sloppy, and they went the American way...screw the customer and charge more. If it doesn't work, screw them all and close the doors.

And as far as your 'level' of M1A, you paid double what it is worth. It was obsolete the day the first one was built. It does nothing any other 308 can't do, and is just an average shooting weapon. It is relying on 'history' that is doesn't have since it has the shortest military career of any US rifle. Snobbery again. It has nothing to with 'quality', it has everything to do with marketing and removing you from your money with little more then a warm fuzzy feeling as a selling point. Good ol' CMP tactics.
By "level", I meant what's on the rifle for equipment. A standard Vepr comes with no provision for optics except the side base. The Socom 16 comes with a Picatinny rail. One less thing I have to buy. The Socom comes with a plastic stock, may increase the value, may not. The Veprs come with either the "firewood" stocks or the regular thumbhole ones. 99% of people change the Vepr stocks. The Socom 16 doesn't have a stock that needs to be changed ASAP. They both come with standard, heavy triggers; Vepr's is long amount of travel, M1As are little travel but harder to engage.

By the by, the M1A wasn't obsolete out of the gate. Who else was selling 20-round .308s on the consumer market in the 70s and 80s besides Valmet? The M1A isn't the M14 and I'm not going to get into the "the M14 is obsolete" argument because you and I both know that militaries are still using M14s/M21s and the AK platform. The M1A is a niche rifle that fits into the American gun market. Some guys buy it for history, some guys buy it because it's a .308 gas gun with a 20 round mag, and some people buy it just to have it. I bought it because I like shooting it and it's easier to use and live with than a Vepr. Veprs are great guns, I'm sure Arsenals and Valmets are as well.



Anyways...

The opportunity for a new AK company is here, in America. Don't have to deal with import restrictions, no 922(r) to comply with, no "sporting" shit, and probably cheaper taxes. If Century can farm out WASRs for $500 and they work, why can't a company make a decent AK for $750 to $1000? Start up costs mostly.
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Old 09-28-2014, 02:06 PM
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FN FAL/C1 '55/56, HK G3 '59, CETME '56/57- B model in '58, C model in '64 till the mid '70s, BM 59 in '59, SIG 510-4 in the '60s, Stgw.57 in '55- I know it is 7.5 GP-11.... And the Type 64 in the '60s. And the Finns didn't field a Val;et or Sako rifle in 7.62NATO, 7.62x39 and 5.56NATO only. The rest were export only weapons. M62/76/95 were the military models issued..with 400m irons, but you have to qual for IDF at 450-500m on irons, and they did it with the x39 round, and still do. this is part of the reason I have never fed into the 'AKs are inaccurate' realm. i know what they can and can't do.
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